Defibrilators

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Yogi
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Defibrilators

Post: # 17482Post Yogi
Sun May 13, 2007 7:59 pm

To avoid cluttering the "training" topic that touched on first aid and defibs..

Defibs open up a can of worms..

They appeared in shopping centres and supermarkets etc basically because the ambulance service (generally speaking) can't hit it's times. Co-responders, first responders and defibs in public places all came about because of this.

It's not the fault of the ambulance service, they have a hell of a job and just don't have the means to get to every job quickly enough. The police are blessed with fast cars, fire have more trucks and personnel then you could ever hope for - but ambulances? They're always up against it, they have my everlasting respect.

Defibs, first responders, co-responders etc can be very good things, and I'm sure do an awful lot of good, and do make a difference. And maybe the same would be true if defibs were in TO vehicles and fire appliances (as was suggested no too long ago). But shouldn't all this effort and money be put into resources and personnel for the ambulances and paramedics, so that the chap having a heart attack gets a trained professional, with the means to treat beyond what a defib can do, and also to get them to hospital if needs be?

It's an idealistic, and perhaps unrealistic view, but personally I oppose defibs for us, fire, supermarkets, what ever on the grounds that the ambulance services will never get the funding and support it needs, not to mention deserves if money is being spent elsewhere instead of on them.


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Last edited by Yogi on Sun May 13, 2007 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ExAmb
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Post: # 17484Post ExAmb
Sun May 13, 2007 8:10 pm

In my area the HA have been approached by local ambo to train and kit us as 1st responders.( HA declined).
As you would guess I don't have a problem with this but I can see it getting to the point where we are asked to respond just off network. We then open ourselves to problems as we would not be covering our own jobs.
As a point of interest CPR carried out badly can extend the patients chance of recovery from 4 mins to 11 mins, so do we realy need the extra kit and training.

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Post: # 17485Post Yogi
Sun May 13, 2007 8:13 pm

Exactly. As well as my last, there is always the risk of being diverted to "medical" jobs, taking us away from our role. This was the reasoning behind fire services not having defibs.


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Re: Defibrilators

Post: # 17486Post Guinness Man
Sun May 13, 2007 8:14 pm

The nearer you are to a defib should you need it the better as after approximately 4 minutes the contents of your head are not going to provide the usual range of services. Response times for ambulance are I believe 8 minutes for an emergency and they need an awful lot of luck to achieve this given the pressure they are under.
Our own First Aid training was totally inadequate given the environment we find ourselves in ocaasionally and the application of CPR is not going to restart anyones heart but it may sustain someone so that they may be recoverable.

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Post: # 17489Post Asap
Sun May 13, 2007 8:17 pm

Just wondering how often they actually get used in these places, i know lot's of people keel over at the leisure club etc cos they are overdoing it a bit or raising their risk so they come in handy.

Luckily never had course to use anything like this, know of a few cases where the mop's are past a bit of resus, but where does it stop, do we carry glucose kits for diabetics, they happen a lot more in our job so far, let's face it we can't even give someone with a flat tyre a bit of air to get them to a safer location, anyway i'll stop now before they take the water out of the cars in case someone needs to use a bit.

All i can say is the traffic officer service is a crackin service , but we ain't recovery/ambo and fire all rolled into one as i keep getting told on Pdp day every year, unless they convert us to an all in one motorway rescue service i don't see it happening.

But defib's everywhere, that's like giving the wife a paintbrush or a builder a course in manners, never used or required (TIC of course :wink: )

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Post: # 17491Post ExAmb
Sun May 13, 2007 8:34 pm

The local fire service in this area have just taken on the role as first responders, because the poor ambo chaps / chapesses are hammered. ( with too much work )

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Post: # 17498Post Bob Parr
Sun May 13, 2007 9:42 pm

We needed to call an ambo for a collapsed male last night (alcohol not involved) Ambulance had to come from a different county from 27 miles away. :shock:

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Post: # 17513Post Race Track
Sun May 13, 2007 10:37 pm

DOn't agree with HATO's having Defib training/equipment. It would only drag us into more situations that we are not required to deal with. Not saying we don't already get dragged in nor that more First Aid training is required, but defib training in my opinion is just one step too much at this stage.

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Post: # 17537Post ukmedic1
Mon May 14, 2007 9:29 am

Do any of you have any objection to being trained how to use a fire extinguisher? Anyone want to take them off the vehicles? Do you complain that the fire brighade response is not fast enough if you have to consider using the extinguisher?

Statistically if a defib was placed next to every fire extinguisher as required by law, then the defib is several times more likely to be used....

Please can we stop saying that first aid training fills the holes in ambulance responses? I tgink that it is time everyone took on a bit more responsibility for saving lives. Even if I turn up in four minutes, my chances of saving the victim of a cardiac arrest are slim - unless someone can do something for the patient while they are waiting for me. In eight minutes you may as well save the cost of the ambulance and send an undertaker.

In my ambulance career I have seen a dozen victims of cardiac arrest leave hospital. All of them have had good cpr and / or defibrillation prior to my arrival.

An example of where they are used is London Bridge Station. The station staff are not called to any incident off station. In fact they are not called by the ambulance service at all - they work to thier normal routines, but will use a defib if one is required. In the last two years they have used the machines 11 times. 8 people are now alive who would not be if the station staff had not acted as they did with the defib.

No ambulance service in the world can claim anything close to this survival rate!

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Post: # 17538Post falkor
Mon May 14, 2007 9:45 am

a very sobering and accurate reply ukmedic, thank you for that

defibrillators take up significant space on the "new style" 3 day first aid course given to every single member of Surrey Police and when I say every single member, I mean SOCO, PCSO, station officer, personnel manager THE LOT

check out our very own 28 question FIRST AID QUIZ - based on the course!! the quiz includes several questions on defibs

Employers vary so much though

When I worked for the Metropolitan Police I had an entire day's course on using a fire extinguisher but nothing on use of defibrillators

Upon becoming employed by Surrey Police I have had a superb 3 day first aid course including defibrillators but not a word about use of a fire extinguisher :wink: there you go
Race Track wrote:DOn't agree with HATO's having Defib training/equipment. It would only drag us into more situations that we are not required to deal with. Not saying we don't already get dragged in nor that more First Aid training is required, but defib training in my opinion is just one step too much at this stage.

M2pWorth
RT I think you would change your mind if the HA gave you guys, the same 3 day course that is given to all staff (including civvies) in Surrey Police

personally I think Surrey Police lead the way on this and that all employers should do the same
ukmedic1 wrote:Even if I turn up in four minutes, my chances of saving the victim of a cardiac arrest are slim - unless someone can do something for the patient while they are waiting for me. In eight minutes you may as well save the cost of the ambulance and send an undertaker.
there's the reality :wink:

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Post: # 17542Post V_max
Mon May 14, 2007 10:26 am

Race Track wrote:DOn't agree with HATO's having Defib training/equipment. ........., but defib training in my opinion is just one step too much at this stage.
In a previous job I had defib training (in house by Red Cross) only took a few hours and was really useful in refreshing CPR stuff too.
It's really easy - the box tells you what to do.
Our RCC has a defib........wonder who is trained to use it?

Anyway, if the TOV First Aid kit is only meant for HATOs, maybe we should have an AED for when the sausage/egg with red take their toll? :wink:

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Post: # 17608Post ExAmb
Mon May 14, 2007 11:53 pm

Don't get me wrong I strongly advocate the use of defibs and there arn't enough of them in this country.
In my last job I used to instruct on their use.
The problem is knowing Ambulance Services as i do and the financial restraints placed upon them, I can see the time when any HA vehicle with a defib on board would be called to attend off network to enhance the ambulance orcan standards.
I am sure we would be used as first responders, and i'm sure most T/O's would feel they have a duty of care to respond knowing they had the means to help. I know I would.

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Post: # 17609Post Charl_Hunter
Tue May 15, 2007 12:00 am

I don't think it wouyld ever happen that HATOs would be called off network by the ambulance service to attend for the simple logistical reason that ambulance control would never know where you guys were!
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Post: # 17617Post ukmedic1
Tue May 15, 2007 7:12 am

I think it is a pity that two issues are so often now being confused. Lets try to seperate them:

1: carrying lifesaving equipment and being able to use it if needed (good thing)

2: becoming an extension of the ambulance service to make up shortfalls in cover (good / bad depending on your perspective).

I would like to push option 1, and edge my bets by agreeing that point 2 might detract from your core role (and as charl has said, be of limited use).

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Post: # 17618Post fubar
Tue May 15, 2007 7:29 am

Exactly right, we can either be a useful asset to the travelling public, or we can forever bleat that "its not our job!".
Well, if our job is to keep the roads clear I would sugggest that giving the right aid at the appropriate time would clear the network a lot faster than waiting for the bib to finish their investigation into a sudden death on the road.
As for the worry that we would be sent first to medical type problems, maybe off the network, well personally I don't believe that that would ever happen, the RCC should be able to filter out these type of requests if the ambulance control were ever to ask, and the travelling public would never think of calling us in the first place., as an aside I think we should carry oxygen and neck collars, these would be used every day.
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